I totally appreciate your perspective on this. But I think you were missing part of the point of kickstarter.
These are projects, not products. You're making a donation, not buying something. For that donation you are often promised a reward, but you are not guaranteed one.
There is a certain amount of risk associated with backing a project on kickstarter. Projects don't always turn out the way you hope. Budget issues, design flaws, etc, are all par for the course.
I've backed a number of projects now. I just checked, and I've backed 15 projects out of which 9 have received funding ($346 pledged, $284 charged) since August 2011. So far I have only received two items.
I hope to receive all the items I've funded, but I know that even with the best intentions, not every project will be able to deliver.
Since you believed you were "purchasing" items, perhaps kickstarter needs to do a better job of making it clear that what you are doing is making a donation, and the whole thing is running on the honor system. They do say that (http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/backing%20a%20project#Ac...), but I guess they could do a better job of stressing it.
Because it's a donation, it's my understanding that kickstarter, amazon, and the police would have no real recourse unless there has been serious fraudulent claims of some kind.
Anyway, I would urge you to change the way you look at kickstarter, and then give it another go. I'm a huge fan of the model, and have enjoyed both the items I've received so far. You can always give them for xmas next year :)
Generally I agree with you here, though I once read that the majority (perhaps the vast majority?) of the best-funded projects in Kickstarter history presented themselves as product pre-sales. They showed tangible goods, linked those goods to donation levels, and in all but name only, gave the impression that users were trading "donations" for the goods they saw in the pictures.
Perhaps this says something about Kickstarter and its userbase, or about the way Kickstarter describes itself to its users. I am a big fan of Kickstarter, and I've funded about ten projects on the site. I realize that not everything I fund is going to ship me something, and I'm fine with that.
But I suspect I am not a typical user. Indeed, I suspect that the typical user funds a single project, which he or she believes will directly result in the shipment of a physical product. In fact, I would be very curious to know what the user stats tell us on this matter. If Kickstarter says it's X (a donation site), but a preponderance of its users believe it's Y (a pre-sales site), then it's got an interesting dilemma on its hands. A site that believes itself to be X will not be a good enough Y for people who think it's Y, and vice versa. Maybe Kickstarter doesn't want the Y people sticking around, or it thinks that a preponderance of Y people indicates that the site is still in its infancy and has yet to mature. Fine. But if that's the case, and the Y pipeline eventually dries up, is X actually a viable business model? To date, it seems that Y users have been keeping X afloat.
If I build a ski run, and the majority of my users show up to snowboard on it, do I still call it a ski run? Do I chase the snowboarders off? Do I try to reason with the snowboarders, and convince them to trade their snowboards for skis? Do I advertise for more skiers, hoping that their numbers will eventually outweigh those of the snowboarders? Or do I embrace snowboarding? There isn't a right answer, and obviously my analogy is a little silly, but hopefully you see what I'm getting at.
>These are projects, not products. You're making a donation, not buying something.
That this was a sale isn't a question of perspective, but the legal fact of the matter. The project I funded advertised itself as "pre-sales". It was not asking for donations, it was asking for pledges to buy the product. Nowhere has there been any implication, let alone statement that I'm not "guaranteed" the product I purchased.
>There is a certain amount of risk associated with backing a project on kickstarter.
Sure, but that's not the issue. In this case, the flashlight I ordered was redesigned to be significantly larger than it was initially promised (when it was claimed to be identical to the other flashlight he's selling.)
That increase in size and weight actually makes this product much less suitable to my needs than the original one was. Yes, for me, that is an issue. (I live full time out of a backpack, I travel the world full time- I know the dates these were supposed to ship because I knew when I'd be in the USA and gave him an extra 2 months to ship, even.)
But I didn't even mention this design change. I'm ok with it. I did accept some risk, and I even accepted the risk that he might be as much as 2 months late in shipping. Now that I'm out of the USA, getting the flashlights delivered to me will be more hassle, and significantly more expensive due to import duties and international shipping.
I haven't complained about either of those- that's within the risk.
>Because it's a donation, it's my understanding that kickstarter, amazon, and the police would have no real recourse unless there has been serious fraudulent claims of some kind.
In no way is it a donation. When you offer someone a product for money, that's a sale. This isn't an issue of perspective, this is the nature of the law.
No they don't. Nowhere in there do they say its on the honor system. Nowhere in there do they say its donations. Of course kickstarter is attempting to disclaim responsibility by saying the project starter is responsible for delivery. However, this is not the case under the law of the land, nor the contract that Kickstarter signed with Amazon, nor the contract that Amazon signed with the credit card companies.
I don't care. I'll reverse charges thru Amazon and then Kickstarter can take it up with the project backer.
>You can always give them for xmas next year :)
Yeah, you like this project because you like giving money to people. Great. If this were kiva and I was bitching about a loan not being repaid, you'd be right. But this is not kiva.
"Each project is crafted solely by its creator, and it’s up to them to make the case that they can successfully bring their project to life. Part of every creator’s job is earning their backers’ trust, especially backers who don’t personally know them.
Creators are encouraged to share links to their personal website(s), as well as any websites that show work related to the project, or past projects.
The web is an excellent resource for learning about someone’s prior experience. If someone has no demonstrable prior history of doing something like their project or is unwilling to share information, backers should consider that when weighing a pledge. If something sounds too good to be true, it very well may be."
READ: caveat emptor.
I'm not saying this particular kickstarter project hasn't jerked you around. Nor am I saying you have no right to attempt to get your money back. What I am saying is if you look at kickstarter projects like purchases, you're going to be angry eventually.
Kickstarter can say whatever they want in their FAQ. It doesn't change the law. It doesn't change the contracts they signed with Amazon. It doesn't change the contract Amazon signed with the credit card companies. It doesn't change the FTC regulations for sales. It doesn't change the fact that this product was advertised for sale, explicitly. Further, nothing in this indicates that it was a "donation" or on the "honor" system, nor absolves kickstarter of liability for being a party to fraud, either morally or legally.
I won't be doing any more business with kickstarter because they have shown themselves to not be a trustworthy entity. Not because this guy is late with his deliveries, but because they don't care. They're party to fraud that has gone on for more than a year in other cases, with no signs of delivery. And they don't care.
If you're happy using kickstarter to give money to projects without expecting any kind of a delivery, that's fine for you. Where you're wrong is in telling me I'm wrong, for being upset that a product that was explicitly SOLD to me, was not delivered.
You're telling me to change my perspective. This isn't an issue of perspective. You can give your money away however you like. I'm not telling you your wrong. I am telling you that the fact of the matter is, I was sold a product. I was not solicited for a donation.
Kickstarter is not an entity that is trustworthy with money.
I was under the illusion that investment laws are stricter than consumer laws. If I, as a backer on kickstarter, am an investor and not a customer (or donor or whatever), then investment laws apply. Does anyone know what, under such laws, is legally required by a kickstarter project?
IANAL However, as I understand unless it's clearly a case of fraud the law treats such things as a loan, because you where not offered stock or a cut of profits ect. If he incorporated, you might at best be able to recover your money from whatever the company's assets are, but you really have minimal recourse that's worth the time investment at this point.
These are projects, not products. You're making a donation, not buying something. For that donation you are often promised a reward, but you are not guaranteed one.
There is a certain amount of risk associated with backing a project on kickstarter. Projects don't always turn out the way you hope. Budget issues, design flaws, etc, are all par for the course.
I've backed a number of projects now. I just checked, and I've backed 15 projects out of which 9 have received funding ($346 pledged, $284 charged) since August 2011. So far I have only received two items.
I hope to receive all the items I've funded, but I know that even with the best intentions, not every project will be able to deliver.
Since you believed you were "purchasing" items, perhaps kickstarter needs to do a better job of making it clear that what you are doing is making a donation, and the whole thing is running on the honor system. They do say that (http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/backing%20a%20project#Ac...), but I guess they could do a better job of stressing it.
Because it's a donation, it's my understanding that kickstarter, amazon, and the police would have no real recourse unless there has been serious fraudulent claims of some kind.
Anyway, I would urge you to change the way you look at kickstarter, and then give it another go. I'm a huge fan of the model, and have enjoyed both the items I've received so far. You can always give them for xmas next year :)