I find that a very bold move, how will they reivent the wheel on the man-years of optimization work went into LLVM to their own compiler infrastructure?
Proebsting's Law: Compiler Advances Double Computing Power Every 18 Years
You need to implement very few optimizations to get the vast majority of compiler improvements.
Many of the papers about this suggest that we would be better off focusing on making quality of life improvements for the programmer (like better debugger integration) rather than abstruse and esoteric compiler optimizations that make understanding the generated code increasingly difficult.
No, the whole point is to eliminate dependencies that they have to maintain. "not obligate" really doesn't mean anything if it's available as a backend--the obligation is on the Zig developers to keep it working, and they want to eliminate that obligation.
And the original question was "how will they reivent the wheel on the man-years of optimization work went into LLVM to their own compiler infrastructure?" -- the answer is that Andrew naively believes that they can recreate comparable optimization.
There are a whole lot of misstatements about Zig and other matters in the comments here by people who don't have much knowledge about what they are talking about--much of the discussion of using low-level vs high-level languages for writing compilers is nonsense. And one person wrote of "Zig and D" as if those languages are comparable, when D is at least as high level as C++, which it was intended to replace.
First I was naive to believe I could make a new programming language, then I was naive to believe it would be anything but a toy project, then I was naive to believe that we could make our own backends for debug mode, now I'm naive to believe that we can add optimizations to the pipeline. It's getting old. Just because you lack the creativity, willpower, and work ethic to accomplish something, doesn't mean I do.
I admire your creativity, willpower, and work ethic, and a few other things about you, but I don't admire reactionary garbage like this ... I'm actually rather shocked by it and how it leans heavily on the strawman "I'm naive to believe that we can add optimizations to the pipeline" which is not the statement that was made, but I will maintain my high regard for you and your efforts despite it ... no human is perfect. I have a lengthy list of technical brilliancies in Zig that I admire that I won't bore you with but do often bore others with.
At least you acknowledge that I am correct about your belief, whereas someone else said I was exactly wrong.
As for me, while I had a successful software development career spanning 6 decades, received a mention in a two-digit RFC, and hold several networking patents, my best years are far behind me, but even in my heyday I couldn't hold a candle to your creativity, willpower, work ethic, or productivity ... but how is that at all relevant?
> the answer is that Andrew naively believes that they can recreate comparable optimization.
That's exactly wrong.
> There are a whole lot of misstatements about Zig and other matters in the comments here by people who don't have much knowledge about what they are talking about.
To clarify, my statement was based on comments I have seen and heard from Andrew Kelley when discussing this subject. I can't locate those at the moment, but here is https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39156426 by mlugg, a primary member of the Zig development team (emphasis added):
"To be clear, we aren't saying it will be easy to reach LLVM's optimization capabilities. That's a very long-term plan, and one which will unfold over a number of years. The ability to use LLVM is probably never going away, because there might always be some things it handles better than Zig's own code generation. However, trying to get there seems a worthy goal; at the very least, we can get our self-hosted codegen backends to a point where they perform relatively well in Debug mode without sacrificing debuggability."
The current interim plan (which I think was developed after the comments that I heard from Andrew, perhaps in recognition of their naivete) is for Zig to generate LLVM binary files that can be passed to a separate LLVM instance as part of the build process. Is that "a first-class supported backend target for compilation"? I suppose it's a matter of semantics, but that certainly won't be the current LLVM backend that does LLVM API calls.
What do you mean by "interim"? As I explicitly stated in the comment you quoted, it has never, and likely will never, been planned for the Zig compiler to become incapable of using LLVM. The LLVM backend still sees plenty of active development by the core team [0]---that's perfectly compatible with improving the experience of users (including ourselves) by avoiding unnecessary uses of LLVM [1].
> ...is for Zig to generate LLVM binary files that can be passed to a separate LLVM instance as part of the build process. Is that "a first-class supported backend target for compilation"? I suppose it's a matter of semantics, but that certainly won't be the current LLVM backend that does LLVM API calls.
I think you are incorrectly assuming that we currently make heavy use of the LLVM API. As indicated by #13265 being closed, that is not true. The Zig compiler already generates bitcode by itself, without touching the LLVM API. The only thing we actually use the LLVM API for is feeding that bitcode to LLVM, which can easily be done by invoking a CLI instead. Users quite literally would not be able to tell if, for instance, we changed the compiler to pass the bitcode to Zig's embedded build of Clang over CLI.
as a comment about a particular project and its goals and timelines, this is fine. as a general statement that we should never revisit things its pretty offensive. llvm makes a lot of assumptions about the structure of your code and the way its manipulated. if I were working on a language today I would try my best to avoid it. the back ends are where most of the value is and why I might be tempted to use it.
we should really happy that language evolution has started again. language monoculture was really dreary and unproductive.
20 years ago you would be called insane for throwing away all the man-years of optimization baked into oracle, and I guess postgres or mysql if you were being low rent. and look where we are today, thousands of people can build databases.
